UnHacked - Cybersecurity Made Simple for Small Businesses

Justin Shelley (00:11)
I had a really slow dance today. Yeah. I'm

Joshua Holloway (00:13)
You got that like slow sway.

Mario Zaki (00:13)
Mm.

Justin Shelley (00:17)
I'm imagining that's how our friend was when you said that he disappeared for twenty four hours. It sounds like an episode of the hangover.

Mario Zaki (00:24)
Yeah.

Justin Shelley (00:25)
All right.

Joshua Holloway (00:26)
if I could have found

his like s like somebody's phone number to call, I would have been like, Hey, we fucked up. We lost Brian

Justin Shelley (00:36)
And nobody

knows what we're talking about. Anyways, guys, let's get started. Episode 108 today of Unhacked. Guys, we're gonna talk about, you'll never guess, AI, because I think that's all we talk about anymore. it is crazy though how much the the analytics have gone up since

Joshua Holloway (00:53)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (00:54)
we've started talking about AI. This is a hot topic. Everybody's interested. Most people are not happy about it. I don't get a lot of, my god, my life's so much better because of AI. I get a lot of anger, fear, frustration.

so it's interesting. you know, I don't

Joshua Holloway (01:07)
Can you can

you elaborate a little bit more on the on the fear of the angst?

Justin Shelley (01:11)
I think people just think it's gonna take their jobs. You know, you've got that fear, you've got a a lot of suspicion of the higher ups, whether that's government or big corporations or I think those are the two big ones people complain about, but yeah,

Joshua Holloway (01:28)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (01:29)
there's there's just a lot of unrest. I'm gonna conclude today's episode with my wild ass theory. but I'm not gonna start with it.

Today guys, we're just gonna jump in and just like this is free form. We're gonna talk through what you guys see out there. What are you excited about? What are you afraid of? What's new? Because it's been a full week since we talked last, so the whole world has changed. what happened in your week this over the last seven days? And and I'm just gonna start with that. I'm I'm throwing it out there. Why don't you take it and run?

Mario Zaki (02:02)
Well, the biggest thing for me

Justin Shelley (02:03)
the room goes quiet.

Joshua Holloway (02:03)
All right, I'll go for it.

well there you go, Mario, go for it. Mm-hmm.

Mario Zaki (02:07)
Sorry. the biggest thing for me is the

new Raya that came out, which is reverse engineer anything. and

Justin Shelley (02:18)
Yeah.

Mario Zaki (02:19)
the biggest, you know, victims so far of this thing is Adobe and Microsoft. especially Adobe, their entire Adobe suite that they've spent billions of dollars to develop has been

within a matter of days has been completely replicated and now available for download for free to anybody.

Justin Shelley (02:44)
To be clear, very limited functionality and performance. There's there's still a lot of gaps, shall we say. However, those will be closed. So yeah, very interesting development there. Josh?

Joshua Holloway (02:57)
Well,

I'm

I'm I'm also curious, I think from when when do the cease and desist requ requests start coming out, you know, what are these big corporations that have spent millions to billions of dollars building these products, you know, carrying and feeding for these products? You know, they're not gonna take that sitting down. They're going to wanna

Justin Shelley (03:15)
Correct.

Joshua Holloway (03:16)
they're they're gonna want recourse, which obviously because they're gonna want recourse, we're gonna have a whole new legal precedence on on software. I don't know about you guys, but like

I'll see some kind of cool widget or or access or flow and I'll pop up ChatGPT or or Claude and I'll be I'll have it go through it and figure out how that's being done because I like the way when I click on a bubble, the motion is captured or or anything like that. And I'll replicate it. Doesn't

Justin Shelley (03:46)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (03:46)
mean I'm replicating an entire platform or or an entire system, but there are aspects that I see where I'm like, I like that. I think that's cool. I want that. Now

Somebody did code that. What is free to use and then what's a violation of copyright?

Justin Shelley (04:02)
Those are the answers we're gonna have to sort out over the next days, months, years, who knows? Mario, what are your thoughts on this?

Mario Zaki (04:11)
I definitely think there there's gonna be a big lawsuit that comes down. The only thing is with this it's open source. So if it's open source then somebody and you see it all the time, they just close up and open up something else or somebody else takes over and then they close and they open up because that's the whole thing with open source is that it's free for anybody to to use or adjust accordingly.

Justin Shelley (04:36)
Free

to use, but it's still potentially a infringement of something when you take somebody else's intellectual property and replicate it and then make it free. so that's I I don't know. I mean, Josh, you raise a good point. Mario, I'm pushing back a little on that just because if I develop something and put it out as open source, that's one thing. But if I rip somebody off and put it out there as open source, it's not my product, it's not something that I came up with.

Yeah, I I fully expect this.

Mario Zaki (05:08)
Yeah, don't get me wrong.

Justin Shelley (05:09)
And he's got his name out there. It's not like he's this is some anonymous user. You kn you we know exactly who it is, so I expect lawsuits. We'll see.

Joshua Holloway (05:18)
I couldn't imagine with the costs and and and everything we pay for Adobe, I or even Microsoft, I can't imagine them sitting down and just taking it or seeing what happens. There's there's gotta be some kind of legal recourse.

Mario Zaki (05:32)
I'm sure it's already been filed.

Justin Shelley (05:32)
But then at

to

Joshua Holloway (05:35)
yeah.

Justin Shelley (05:35)
to what end? this is and this is where I again, no answers, no crystal ball on this whatsoever. how much do you have to change it before they can't say that anymore? Because a word processing application is not a new concept. A an application that modifies images is not a new concept. All of these, in fact, have been stolen from somebody else. Adobe and Microsoft, I they weren't the first ones.

Microsoft is the biggest ripoff company ever. They steal everything from Apple.

Joshua Holloway (06:06)
Or Xerox early on.

Justin Shelley (06:08)
Word Perfect. You guys remember Word Perfect?

Joshua Holloway (06:11)
yeah.

Mario Zaki (06:11)
Yeah.

Justin Shelley (06:12)
Lotus notes. I mean so I I mean, I don't know. I more questions and answers on this one.

Joshua Holloway (06:21)
Yeah, and I I think it makes Mario makes a good point too. Like if if we can go and copy any piece of software, you know, copyright and IP, be damned. What's in it? You know, what's the security in it? How's the data protected? Is it, you know, like, yeah, it's open source and we can grab it. And Linux has been open source, right? And there's there's so many different, you know, versions of that that you can download and run. and but you just never know what you're getting unless you go to a reputable place to get it.

Right. Same thing with s skills and and and other things that are becoming more readily available to people who are using artificial intelligence. Right. But where does it stop? Where does it start and how much needs to be changed?

Mario Zaki (07:05)
Now here is my my thing though, is we've pretty much talked about getting rid of our PSA and you know, creating our own software. Justin, you've been ranting about getting rid of SAS vendors for a few weeks now. What I think is gonna happen is that you're gonna see people like maybe like us

If we're using a system, we may copy it just to use it internally. You know, we may not, you know, we're we're not stupid enough to try to sell it or give it away, you know. But what you're gonna see is that okay, whatever XYZ software, I may download it and use it internally and no longer have to pay them. You know, th that's gonna be very hard for them to prove and send me a cease and desist saying.

Hey, you canceled our subscription because you copied it you yourself and now you're using it internally.

Justin Shelley (08:07)
And

I would love that because I just be look at mine. Mine works a whole lot better than yours. I I I don't get rid of I this started because of security concerns and functionality that just wasn't there.

Joshua Holloway (08:19)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (08:20)
but I've like I've said this before, I've got mine to the point where it does so many things all integrated, none of this off the shelf software can touch what I'm building. They couldn't even it's not even similar.

There's there's no way anybody's coming after me for what I'm doing. And that's I guess the point I would make on this. That's great. Go rip off Adobe, rip off Microsoft. We already have those products. And for the most

Joshua Holloway (08:43)
Uh-huh.

Justin Shelley (08:44)
part, they're already built into our finances. It's not that big of a deal in most companies. We're paying for email. It's a few bucks more to get the Microsoft Office suite. Right. I d I don't know how much of a threat that is to Microsoft. We'll see.

but I would much rather see somebody spend their time building something new than just ripping something else off to save a few bucks. That's my take.

Mario Zaki (09:06)
Yeah, but then once somebody builds something new, somebody else is gonna rip it off.

Justin Shelley (09:11)
Yeah, I know. I know.

Joshua Holloway (09:14)
Well, both both of you guys make a really good point. Mara, your your point is is the the MSPs like us, right? W and Justin, we've all talked about this where we're getting bent over a barrel for our tools. We're getting locked into contracts that are unforgiving when clients leave and and we're we're stuck kind of filling in the gap of what we were making off of them and what we're we're being charged for these tools. A lot of us are going and building these tools just to cut that super high expenditure. Who's to say

The larger companies that we're getting our software from, not to name anyone anyone particularly, but we all know who we're talking about, right? They're gonna get wind of all of a sudden all of these MSPs leaving because they figured out that we're all writing all of our own PSAs, maybe some RMMs, you know, tools like that that we use every day. Who's to say that they don't turn around and and either one stick us with some kind of new like non compete clause or something that the attorneys

Dream up that we have to sign to continue to use their software before we kick them out, or something where they start to go after all the little MSPs. and like Mario said, we need or and even you, Justin, we need to look at your code. We need to see that you you didn't steal our platform and our functionality. For you, Justin, like you said, mine's completely different. I didn't steal any code. Go ahead, take a look at it. But is that also a way

For them to start figuring out how we figured out how to use their platforms better, and then it's reverse steer stealing, but then we don't have the deep pockets to turn around and sue them.

Justin Shelley (10:46)
I don't know. This is this is out of my realm of expertise. I am not an attorney. I I

Joshua Holloway (10:50)
Hey, we're not we're not attorneys.

Mario Zaki (10:47)
Yeah.

Y you know what

what what the difference is though, I think, is because when we're developing stuff, we're developing it for the way we want it. We're not developing it for mass production. when we're talking about

Joshua Holloway (11:05)
Correct.

Justin Shelley (11:05)
And that's

Mario Zaki (11:06)
these big companies, they're doing it so they can satisfy thousands of people. We're not interested.

Justin Shelley (11:11)
Which is the problem. That's exactly why we're building our own, is because these products that are built to satisfy a thousand different wish lists, it's not practical. That's why their software sucks. And it's why building our own is so much more practical. And again, for me, it's not it started off being about the money, it started off being about control, it started about like I said, but at this point it's just sheer functionality and productivity. I can do so much more with my own software. I I I can't see buying that stuff ever again.

Joshua Holloway (11:42)
Yeah. No, SaaS as a whole is gonna get flipped upside down because of the thought process that you just shared, right?

Justin Shelley (11:47)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (11:48)
it's our it's our personal ROI, right? And nobody knows how to calculate that. Nobody knows how AI is affecting our true ROI, right? But we we're we're trying to improve how we deliver services. And I think people who are thinking like us are trying to do the same thing.

Justin Shelley (12:03)
Do you guys remember it's been months now? I I started talking about using AI for as a running coach. I

Joshua Holloway (12:10)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (12:10)
I loved it. that's run its course, so to speak. haha. I I I need a sound effect.

Mario Zaki (12:15)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (12:16)
But

Justin Shelley (12:20)
I don't use it anymore. I now use an off the shelf app that is a an AI enhanced running coach, and I like it much better.

And what's interesting though is I've gone the other way, I've gone the opposite direction, but now ChatGPT is sending me ads on social media. Use our use ChatGPT to build a running coach. I'm like, hmm, you stole my idea, bitch. I'm

Joshua Holloway (12:42)
Well, we all know that was happening. we we know

that they're going through our our our chats to figure out what we're building and and what features we really want. I mean, so

Justin Shelley (12:48)
Yeah, yeah, they do.

Joshua Holloway (12:52)
many people have come out and said that that's happening.

Justin Shelley (12:55)
Yeah. All right guys, what else is going on in the world of AI over the past

Joshua Holloway (13:00)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (13:00)
seven lengthy days, which turns into a full generation anymore?

Joshua Holloway (13:05)
I I got a good one for you. so what we started doing is we started using and we built a tool to analyze all skills that we are trying to to load. So all my AIs have a standing order that they cannot install a skill until it's been verified and ran through NVIDIA skill specter. it sandboxes it, it runs it, right?

Justin Shelley (13:28)
Just for kicks, Josh, and I'm sure most people

listening know what a skill is for AI, but just dumb it down for me. When you talk about

Joshua Holloway (13:34)
So sk a s

Justin Shelley (13:35)
the

Joshua Holloway (13:36)
yeah, so a skill is something that somebody's put together that gives special a particular set of instructions to accomplish a task is the easiest way to put it, right? So a skill could be how to build dashboards or or what are the standard template look and feels for web pages, right? So the skills are already there. So there's like UIUX skills, or there's how to project manage. Like if you say, Hey, I want to load a skill that's based on project managing, it will run you through a

A set set of questions to think through and analyze the product that you want to build. But instead of you trying to dream it up, people are going and writing these and sharing them with other people. So you can go and download them. I know Claude has their own marketplace. Chat GPT has a GPT marketplace. so a lot of them already have this, but there's also external skills that you can get from GitHub or or other places that people are writing. if

And I know all of our Instagrams who can hear us right now talking, like talking, when we go on later later on, we're gonna get a whole bunch of ads of people talking about all these different skills that you can download and run and incorporate in your chat into your your AI. So sorry guys for adding that to

Justin Shelley (14:50)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Holloway (14:51)
all all the stuff they're gonna market you to. But it's really a a set standard of tasks, right? But

Justin Shelley (14:57)
Okay.

Joshua Holloway (14:58)
not everybody.

Is

a nice person, right? So what happens is people started uncovering that some of these skills have embedded bad code or code that will still steal information. So the biggest thing was is we had a client that we're working on a huge project with. They have 34 skills. So all and this is pertaining to their business. And one gentleman wrote them all, but what I know is is

He cherry-picked other skills or other code off the internet. And I started thinking about that. And NVIDIA had released their skill specter. So what we did is we built a tool to analyze all other skills and and kind of pluck out, you know, anything that could be labeled as bad. It uncovered a lot of calls that weren't they didn't need to be in there. They were reaching out to other websites or or delivering data to other websites. Yesterday or or or two days ago, from the time that we're recording this.

I got wind of a cool skill that shared all of one company's design efforts, right? And and how they design UI. They're a very popular company. They make a lot of devices, but it's how they I mean, can if you want me to.

Justin Shelley (16:10)
I I trust you're not gonna tell us who this company is. Yeah, let's hear it.

Joshua Holloway (16:15)
So so somebody released a skill full of of all of Apple's how they build, how they do their their flows, their button

Justin Shelley (16:22)
Okay.

Joshua Holloway (16:22)
captures, everything. I'm thinking, cool. I mean, I would love to emulate.

their UI UX platform and and how they they design and build everything. I thought that would be cool. So you know, I was talking to one of my my my chats working on an app for me and it says, all right, well, your rule is is that we can't install a skill until we analyze it. It kicks it off. Within about 15 to 30 seconds, it's like, do not install. And it gave me a list. It gives me a list of what is potentially the problem. I it had a couple of key loggers in it and it had

Justin Shelley (16:54)
wow.

Joshua Holloway (16:55)
a

And it had a c they referred to it as a rug pull. It is an API rug pull. Essentially, at any call, it would pull all the API keys that it had access to and ship it off. the other thing is

is is it was grabbing all of the prompts that you were putting into it. So it was capturing my prompts. Now it didn't do this because we were testing it. So it was

Justin Shelley (17:14)
Shit. Yeah, right.

Joshua Holloway (17:17)
it was keylogging everything, it was capturing the prompts, and then essentially if I

did not set up my boy it would just grab my API keys or my variables using to call API keys. Right. That's scary.

Justin Shelley (17:31)
Yeah, a little bit.

Joshua Holloway (17:34)
The problem I have and is I saw that off of Instagram because I have a lot of people that I follow that talk about AI. And I was like, holy hell, if this person has hundreds of thousands of followers, he just told them to install it because it's a cool skill.

But nobody's thinking about the the cybersecurity aspect of this. So I if 10,000 people go out and get this, that's think of all of the possibilities of all those different API keys and all that data that is being stolen and handed out because people aren't thinking that skills could be used in a nefarious manner.

Justin Shelley (18:12)
I wanna okay, so I usually try to steer away from getting too technical here. but I wanna talk a little bit more about that. Tell me when you say it has a keystroke logger,

Joshua Holloway (18:25)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (18:25)
w what does it look like? Because now admittedly, I haven't gone in and dissected a skill like you're talking about. I know what they are. is it just text? Is it just a prompt? Like you can go through and read it. It's not it's not compiled

Joshua Holloway (18:37)
Yeah, you if you want to go through

Justin Shelley (18:39)
code, right?

Joshua Holloway (18:40)
No, it's not compiled code. You can go through and read the the skills output if you want, or or if you want to go through it. Most people aren't gonna do that. It takes a while because it's lines and lines and lines and lines and lines of instructions, right?

Justin Shelley (18:52)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (18:53)
but it tells it like, hey, as you're doing this, capture this information, send it here. You know, where wherever that that output is.

Justin Shelley (19:02)
Wow.

Joshua Holloway (19:03)
and that's and again, not trying to get too technical, but you first I

Mario Zaki (19:05)
But I'm assuming the keylogging was

just what was entered into Claude or cursor. It's not everything on the computer, right?

Joshua Holloway (19:14)
Well, so that's where it got really weird. Because I was running it in a sandbox. And

Mario Zaki (19:19)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (19:20)
as we began to dive a little bit deeper into the sandbox, and the sandbox, for everybody who may not know, is a walled-off area in a computer that you could do some testing. you can do it a physical network, however, but in this instance, we were running a virtual system to run this inside of.

I started to dig a little bit more into the file, and we were doing some testing because I was trying to see if the skill was even had any viable data in it, usable data. About five minutes into that, my computer locked up, CPU jumped to 100%, and then the whole computer locked up and I turned it off. Yeah.

Justin Shelley (19:58)
shit.

Joshua Holloway (20:00)
Rebooted, came back in, got back in with the AI, sandbox was gone and deleted because it was never committed anywhere. And it was just like

WTF, what just happened? Like why did you lock up? My computer got isolated by my security tools. So then I had to go into another computer and go into the security tools and figure out why it was I isolated, which it was isolated due to the Python code in the skill or the code that was inside the skill that then just ramped up and and ate my my processor.

Justin Shelley (20:27)
Okay, so that

I'm gonna pause you real quick. That so inside of the skill instructions, they actually there is code. Uncompiled,

Joshua Holloway (20:34)
Yeah.

Justin Shelley (20:35)
but there's actual code. It's not just a text prompt.

Joshua Holloway (20:38)
Correct. There can be some code inside of it.

Justin Shelley (20:39)
Or I guess a text prompt

that includes code. I guess it's a blurry line now. Anyway. Yeah. Right.

Joshua Holloway (20:43)
Yeah, or a call Yeah, or a call to Python or or PowerShell or something that's built into our operating

systems. So then I

Mario Zaki (20:51)
Josh.

Joshua Holloway (20:52)
spent after go go ahead.

Mario Zaki (20:54)
I'm sorry. So real quick, the compiler that you said you used, is that your you said you built that yourself or it it's a third party?

Joshua Holloway (21:03)
So NVIDIA released a a tool called Skill Spectre. So it's a skill that will run by its own, but it's coming from NVIDIA. It's legitimately you know, authorized by NVIDIA so I could download it, get it from them. And on top of that, because we wanted our clients that every time they get a skill, that they can run it through this engine and check the skill because I know in the background.

That somebody's gonna go and get a skill, they're not gonna ask us about it, and they're gonna try and plug it in, and something bad's gonna happen. So the thing is, is like here's a tool, you wanna use this, point it here, analyze it. So, on top of what NVIDIA did, we created a web page that utilizes that to gather information on the skill and give them a readout of what actually is going on inside.

Mario Zaki (21:54)
And this is a free tool from NVIDIA?

Justin Shelley (21:57)
Yeah, it's on GitHub.

Joshua Holloway (21:57)
Yeah.

Justin Shelley (21:57)
I just looked it up.

Joshua Holloway (21:59)
Yep, it's on GitHub. You just gotta be careful and make sure that it is the one authorized by NVIDIA.

Justin Shelley (22:06)
I know that's that's the that's an old game though. I remember a client looked up Intuit support on Google, you know. And

Joshua Holloway (22:13)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (22:15)
they're they're chatting with somebody from Intuit 'cause it came up at the top of the results. And it was coincidentally free. They just needed full access to the computer. that was a good time.

Joshua Holloway (22:27)
Yeah.

of course you build a butter mouse, you're gonna build a better mouse trap, and this is just another new attack vector for us. Yeah.

Justin Shelley (22:35)
Yeah, that exactly. But it's

interesting to me, it it all just keeps coming back to we have better tools, but the tactics are pretty much the same. Security is security. And I'm not saying it's a hundred percent not changing, but for the most part, with all of this stuff that's going on, our efforts to secure our our data, our applications, whatever it is, our businesses, it really comes down to the basics that we always talk about. It still does.

For the most part.

Joshua Holloway (23:07)
Patch, update, close holes, verify. Yeah.

Justin Shelley (23:09)
Yep. Sandboxes like you're talking about. Yeah.

It's it's all still the same thing. lateral movement, you know, containing it.

Mario Zaki (23:15)
educating people just like Josh,

just like you said, like verify that it's from NVIDIA. That's educating the user. What you just did is you educated me,

Justin Shelley (23:24)
Yeah.

Mario Zaki (23:25)
you know. I I mean obviously I think I knew that, but you know, you're educating users, you know, like this is what you gotta do to re you know, to check.

Justin Shelley (23:38)
Well, let me make this point. guys, this is what we do all day, every day within our

Joshua Holloway (23:43)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (23:43)
businesses. And then on top of that, we jump on a podcast and we re-explain it. I will tell you that when you teach something to people, you know it better than if you just practice it. If you practice and teach, now I know there's the saying, if you can't do, you teach, right? That's not what I'm talking about. I

Joshua Holloway (23:58)
Damn it, football coach.

Justin Shelley (23:59)
this this is off track, but I went to flight school back in the day.

Joshua Holloway (24:02)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (24:02)
I was gonna be a an airline pilot. I actually did work for an air ambulance company for a couple of years, loved it.

Anyways, in training, I went through almost a full year of training, learning to fly an airplane safely. It was not until I started teaching other students that I got good at flying an airplane. And I I see that, you know, it's why I've I've said this before, too. I think it it's one of the main reasons I do the podcast is to get on here and reinforce my own skills. Now, my point is, that's all background. My point is this is stuff that

we're we're educating people on how to protect their businesses. But we do it all day, every day, and we still need the ongoing education. Mario, I love that you said that. Josh, you just taught me that. Well, I I might have known it. And the point is, whether we know it or not, unless we're rehashing it and talking about it, unless it's the front of our brain all the time, we're gonna get screwed. So

Joshua Holloway (24:57)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (24:58)
I I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say here. It's just to reiterate to everybody listening and God, everybody that's not listening should be listening. You have to take this stuff seriously. It's it's not a part time job. It's not something that you can do on your own. You gotta get somebody doing it that is really good at it, and then you gotta have a a way to verify that they're doing it right. So

Joshua Holloway (25:17)
Yeah.

Justin Shelley (25:17)
I don't know. It's it's

Joshua Holloway (25:19)
Well, and I I think you also hit another nail on the head when we started out this conversation. You're like, it's been a week, the whole entire world has shifted. In the IT world, we used to have what weeks or no, we would have like months to years for shifts. Sometimes maybe a week, it just depends. Now we have days.

Justin Shelley (25:36)
It yeah, it changed because in the early days, and I listen, I've I've been in IT since nineteen ninety-seven. Ninety-six actually, we're being technical. back then it was changing fast. New processors were being developed, you know, bigger memory chips. Like I could remember that sixty-four meg memory chick. I'm like, my god, this is amazing. yeah, yeah,

Joshua Holloway (25:57)
I'll never fill this up. I'll never max it out.

Justin Shelley (26:00)
my one point one point six gig hard drive.

That was just what am I gonna do with all this space? you know, 'cause they were hundred

Mario Zaki (26:08)
What a waste of money.

Justin Shelley (26:10)
two hundred and fifty six meg hard drives back then. Anyways, the development was rapid and then it plateaued for a long time. Long enough that I got truly bored with the industry. I love running a business, but I was really bored with technology because it was not new. It wasn't changing. I love that we're back into that

space where it's it's different every single day I wake up and there's something new going on in the world. So that's why

Joshua Holloway (26:34)
yeah.

Justin Shelley (26:35)
I don't even put together head outlines anymore for the podcast because it's like if I put it together yesterday, by this morning it's all different. We're we're probably talking about something else. So

Joshua Holloway (26:44)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (26:45)
crazy stuff.

Mario Zaki (26:46)
But back then things were changing very quickly and it was always for the better. Now there's a lot of things changing and

Justin Shelley (26:53)
Yeah.

Mario Zaki (26:54)
it's not for the better. You know, a lot of it is changing f pretty bad in a bad way, you know. I I guess for who you look.

Justin Shelley (27:01)
Alright, elaborate,

'cause I I don't know that I agree with you, so elaborate on that. Give me examples.

Mario Zaki (27:06)
I I we we talked about, these big billion dollar, trillion dollar companies are are getting ripped off. not I don't feel bad for them one bit, but what's gonna end up happening is

Justin Shelley (27:18)
Okay.

Mario Zaki (27:19)
it it's gonna eventually trickle down to to to the MSPs for something. Like Josh said, you know, we may have people, these companies that may need to start looking at our code, otherwise, you know, we're gonna get left in the dark.

with

the softwares that we are using with them, which

Justin Shelley (27:35)
That'll that'll never happen.

I will I will go on record. That is never gonna happen where they're gonna be mandate allowed to look at our code to see if we're ripping them off. I don't see that one.

Mario Zaki (27:46)
Yeah, I I

Joshua Holloway (27:47)
I think we

mark I think we we mark today and just see what happens from this point forward. Episode 108. Justin dropped it all on the table.

Justin Shelley (27:50)
Write it down. Write it down. I I this Yeah. It's never happening. But but

I something will happen. I just don't think they'll have access to our code. But I I

Mario Zaki (28:02)
But now

Justin Shelley (28:03)
do think it's it's an infringement of some sort that people are ripping them off. It just absolutely is. And they're not even trying to hide it. Sorry, go ahead.

Mario Zaki (28:08)
Now are people gonna Yeah, are people later

on going to then say, Well, what do I need an MSP for? I can just vibe code the same stuff myself?

Justin Shelley (28:17)
Sure.

If that's all the an MSP's doing, yeah. I do. I think that hell yeah, they took our jobs.

Mario Zaki (28:21)
So are we gonna lose our jobs?

Justin Shelley (28:26)
You guys gotta start watching South Park. No, I but and I've I feel like I'm I repeat myself a lot, but this happened in the mass migration to the cloud. The IT industry was terrified. Like, what are we gonna do?

Joshua Holloway (28:41)
absolutely.

Justin Shelley (28:41)
All of our servers are gone. We don't what what are we gonna charge clients to to manage? Well, my god, now we're managing

This dispersed, disparate system that we don't even know how it works most of the time. We're we're trusting vendors, we're not, and getting pissed at them. it went from a very simple network that we could contain and monitor and and protect to this just God knows what's going on out there. It got more complicated. We do more work now than we've ever done. And I don't see it being different with AI. Are are the, you know, the help desk level one guys gonna still be resetting passwords? No.

No. But I think MSPs now have a bigger job. And maybe it's just going through all these vibe-coded apps and making sure that they're safe. I don't know. Or I will tell you this too. Mario, you said it took you a week to develop the software you're developing. As an MSP owner, right? This is not an industry like we're one of the few industries that has the technical knowledge to do this right now as it sits today.

The average business owner is not gonna shut down everything else he does and spend a week or a month developing software. They're not doing that.

Joshua Holloway (29:52)
Yeah. No, you're right. But all and that will be the disruption i in the MSP market because a lot of us are doing things like that. Are we improving the tools that we're using and we're trying to mitigate our costs, right? Because

Justin Shelley (30:03)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (30:05)
I mean, we're definitely feeling downward pressure on our our services where everybody wants to monetize IT and everybody should pay twenty-five bucks a computer, right? Not realizing all the software that goes into it, all the protections that go into it, all the steps and

and and services. Not saying every client is like that or every business is like that, but there is a monetization inside of the the the realm for MSPs. Or commoditize, yeah. Yeah, sorry, commoditized. Yeah. Thank you.

Justin Shelley (30:28)
I I think you mean commoditize commoditize. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (30:35)
but I you we are doing these things because we have the ability so that we can hit you know some level of profit. Or

Justin Shelley (30:44)
Now I will s go ahead.

Joshua Holloway (30:46)
or I was gonna say, or like improving

are

people's day-to-day jobs, how fast are their productivity, how fast they can accomplish the tasks that they need to. Because the other thing I'm also seeing, maybe you guys are too, is like it's always been how fast can you get this done? Fix it in three seconds.

Justin Shelley (31:06)
Yeah. in in contrast to what I just said, that not every business owner like some definitely do develop their own software. I was at a networking meeting a while back, month or two ago, and I was actually shocked at somebody sitting beside me that was developing their own applications for their business. so I'm not saying that doesn't go that way. Well

Mario Zaki (31:27)
You know what though? You know

what though, Justin? And you guys, obviously will completely agree. It is very addicting. And when a an actual business owner does eventually do it or say, Okay, let me see what I can do, they're gonna get addicted. It is i at this point, it's like a drug, you know, the and we talked about it before we hit record. It's like we're willing to to give up our family time.

to sit there on our laptops and

Justin Shelley (31:57)
That's not how it was worded, but yeah. So we're willing to get divorced over this.

Joshua Holloway (31:59)
Yeah. Way to go, Josh.

Mario Zaki (32:06)
you know, but the it is once you actually start doing it and seeing results, that first time you actually get that little URL to like, okay, it's completed, go ahead and click here and check it out. You're like, holy shit, I just

Justin Shelley (32:20)
Yeah.

Mario Zaki (32:20)
did this in like five minutes.

and then something doesn't work, you're like, okay, fix it. shit, it fixed already. It gets addicting. And then,

Joshua Holloway (32:30)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (32:30)
Yeah.

Mario Zaki (32:31)
you add something, and then that leads you to adding four other things, and then those four other things go to sixteen other things. I think once more and more people start doing it, the more and more they realize they need that quick hit or that quick bump, you know.

Justin Shelley (32:49)
Listen,

my my my crystal ball's lighting up. I've just I've just answered the question. I have it. Put this one on record too. All we've ever done in this industry is take a device that stores or manipulates information, data, and figure out how to get that to talk to somebody else, some other device, right? That's it. In a nutshell, that's all information technology is. By definition, it is technology that handles information. It's the same thing right now.

The device will no longer be a workstation. The device will be the application that was coded, vibe-coded, outsourced, or whatever. It's still everybody now is going to have their own separate software because they all developed it themselves or hired somebody else to. None of it's going to be standardized. And our job is going to be to secure it, integrate it, make sure that it's working the way it's supposed to, troubleshoot the problems, because no matter how good we build our own stuff, it still needs to talk to somebody else's stuff. And that is a process, that is the definition of information technology. Yes?

Joshua Holloway (33:48)
Yes, I

Mario Zaki (33:49)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (33:49)
agree.

Justin Shelley (33:49)
Okay.

All right. We're done. Close our laptops. Time to go home.

Joshua Holloway (33:52)
shit, yeah, we're over. No, I

no, you make a really good point. And you also make another really good point. You I heard standardize, right? We're

Justin Shelley (34:00)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (34:01)
going to be going into the deepest waters of the most mishmash, unstandardized coding area of software functionality. Like people are gonna be like, I don't know how I did this. I just told it to do this. I it gave me instructions on how to set up a server. The app works great.

But now it's broken or something's not communicating. And then that's when we

Justin Shelley (34:20)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (34:21)
come in and we have to fix the communication or we do a security audit. God forbid, we do a security audit. And all of a sudden

Justin Shelley (34:27)
Right.

Joshua Holloway (34:28)
we're you're we're like, Hey, did you know that your your your password functionality is not it's wide open, like nothing's encrypted and everything we could just walk right in. You're you're this password thing that you're doing right now is for show.

Justin Shelley (34:39)
I I saw some

vibe coded code a while ago when this was just starting to be a thing that was exposing a database wide open. No security

Joshua Holloway (34:47)
Yep. Yep.

Justin Shelley (34:48)
whatsoever on it. It worked. It was really cool. Yeah. You're literally

Mario Zaki (34:51)
And the funny thing is we're gonna

use AI to fix that stuff. Exactly.

Justin Shelley (34:55)
Of course.

Joshua Holloway (34:56)
Well, because we have to move faster.

Well, I I don't think anybody who's ever written an ounce of code, if you've never written an ounce of code, I I mean, it gets daunting. Like I've I've done tens of thousands of lines over like a year or two working on a on a program, right? operating system is millions of lines of code. Like nobody

Justin Shelley (35:18)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (35:19)
has the time to sift through that. The nice thing is is AI does a really good job going through that. AI also does a

Justin Shelley (35:24)
That is where it shines.

Joshua Holloway (35:25)
Yeah, it shines there. It also shines at going through logs and right and and parsing through the logs to figure out where a problem is. Right. Because

Justin Shelley (35:29)
Mm-hmm. What went wrong? Yep.

Joshua Holloway (35:33)
we go through it very slowly, line by line, we analyze it, we go through right. AI can go through it, it can parse it out and break it into chunks, give it to other agents, and they can go, here's the event ID, here's your problem. And then yeah, we can get you back up and running a little bit faster. But that that's exactly where where it shines. But it it used to take a lot of time. Now we're getting faster.

Justin Shelley (35:56)
All right, next topic guys, somebody throw one out or we're wrapping it up.

Joshua Holloway (35:59)
Well, the other thing I think we probably want to talk about is people are talking more and more about how they're losing their jobs with AI, but also businesses are talking about how they can't quantify the productivity increase.

Justin Shelley (36:12)
Let me clarify, are people talking about having lost their jobs or are people talking about the fear of potentially losing the jobs? Yeah. I don't

Joshua Holloway (36:19)
I'm gonna stick with fear. I really haven't had a conversation with anybody

who said I was replaced by AI. It's nah, haven't seen it yet. it

Justin Shelley (36:24)
I haven't seen it. You hear the headlines

of mass layoffs, but then you also hear that they come back and rehire people. So that's

Joshua Holloway (36:32)
Well, and anybody listening

to this, if they know somebody who did get replaced explicitly

Justin Shelley (36:35)
Yeah, let us know.

Joshua Holloway (36:36)
by let us know. We want to have that conversation.

Justin Shelley (36:38)
Yeah, absolutely.

Joshua Holloway (36:40)
Yeah. So the

Mario Zaki (36:40)
I think

Joshua Holloway (36:40)
fear is there.

Mario Zaki (36:42)
I think the marketing the marketing field probably lost some jobs. I I don't really know a lot of people in that in that industry directly. But you know, like I I told you guys before the the call, like I had the company that is currently hosting my website. They reached out to me and I've been using this company for eight years, never has spoken to a single human being. They actually called me

yesterday just to touch base and see, how's it going? We just want to check up on you. Meanwhile, I what I didn't tell them is, yeah, you're what you know, I'm not gonna need your website neck after next week because we're working on our new website. So I think they're already seeing that. I think they're seeing a lot of people drop service with them because they've created something in honestly fractions, not even fractions, like millifractions of if that's a word.

of the time that it takes them to actually do it or the way they did it before because we can put together an entire website in hours if not days.

Justin Shelley (37:49)
We can, and I'm I'm gonna say just be it it's a double-edged sword because for me, right, I yes, I can do so much more that I don't need to rely on vendors, and that's the bad word of the of the month. But at the same time, even though with AI I can do my own marketing, I don't have the time to do it. I've got so many things that it AI is making me do more work. It's it's expanding my ability. So now I'm like, shit, well, I couldn't do that before, so it wasn't a problem.

Now I can. Now it's a problem. How do I fit that into my day? So I actually would love to have a good marketing company. I don't have somebody that does my marketing right now and I probably need to fix that because it just doesn't get done. I'm vibe coding my goddamn PSA as we keep talking about. So I'm not

Joshua Holloway (38:34)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (38:34)
marketing.

Mario Zaki (38:35)
Yeah, but the thing is the reason we're switching our website is because they're hosting it and they're not giving us full access to it. We we have a limited

Justin Shelley (38:44)
Absolutely.

Mario Zaki (38:45)
so what we wanna do is I wanna create I wanna use Grokbot or, some Hermes agent whatever to just work on SEO blogs and this and that and not look like a million other websites. But because

Justin Shelley (39:00)
Yeah.

Mario Zaki (39:01)
I couldn't do it through them, I had to actually come up with my own website.

So I can do better marketing, by it through an agent.

Justin Shelley (39:08)
Who did the work? You or do you have somebody else doing it?

Mario Zaki (39:10)
I'm sorry?

Joshua Holloway (39:11)
Yeah,

and I I think go ahead, just

Justin Shelley (39:12)
Who d who's

who's doing the work? Are you doing it yourself or you have a a team member doing it for you?

Mario Zaki (39:17)
The the website.

Justin Shelley (39:19)
Mm-hmm.

Mario Zaki (39:20)
I I have my one of my guys doing it because he won

Justin Shelley (39:22)
Okay. So

Mario Zaki (39:23)
he volunteered and he does it after hours.

Justin Shelley (39:26)
So it's but but my point is the job got moved in house, the job didn't go away.

Mario Zaki (39:31)
It the job got moved in-house temporarily. Like I said, it he's been working on it for a day or two. I looked at it. we are about ninety-five percent there. We're just cha I just wanted to change some buttons around. I wanted to do a little more automation on there, but he started it this week.

Justin Shelley (39:47)
But you are,

I understand, but you are, I'm just being clear, you are paying somebody to do work in the marketing industry. So yes, marketing is changing. It may not be that you hire a developer or a web hosting company that charges you 300 bucks a month to host a shitty site that you can't develop. but the work stays. Marketing stays. How we do it changes. whether it's in-house or outsourced changes, but you're still using somebody.

To do your marketing for you, right?

Mario Zaki (40:18)
Well, by the end of the month, somebody's gonna be losing their job because we're gonna be automating it and doing it in-house ourselves.

Justin Shelley (40:26)
Somebody at your hosting company will have to go work for a company like yours

Mario Zaki (40:28)
Somebody I'm a yeah.

Justin Shelley (40:30)
instead of working for a hosting company, they'll work for a company, a smaller business. I'm just saying we're we're shuffling, we're moving these people around, but the work isn't gone. And you're coming up with a better product that does what you need it to do. So your marketing actually elevates, and then it maybe it works better, and then you do more marketing. I just think this thing snowballs. I don't think we're losing jobs over it. I'm gonna keep until somebody can prove me.

Wrong. I'm gonna stick I'm sticking with that one.

Joshua Holloway (40:58)
Well,

and I'd I'd like to go back earlier in the conversation when Mario was talking about how he he never heard from the company in eight years. And I know

Justin Shelley (41:05)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (41:06)
I know the company he's working with because I tried to work with them. I didn't hear from anybody for six months. My lep my website never got launched. So I just pivoted and went somewhere else. A key point that Mario is making, and it's a great point. When in the in the world of AI, human relationships matter.

the most. Let the AI do the work in

Justin Shelley (41:25)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Holloway (41:26)
the background where it can be utilized. Have good customer service, because if Mario probably would have heard from their client or excuse me, their, their, their vendor more often and they got to maybe brainstorm more about improving the product, would we be displacing them?

Because they would probably

Justin Shelley (41:47)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (41:47)
be improving the product. They would be working more with Mario, hearing what he's saying. It's the same thing. If if we never talk to a client of ours, and it's a it's a double edged sword too, right? Like if everything is working, we never talk to our client because everything is working. So there's not much to bring out. And what are they what do they typically do? They start to wonder what they're paying for. And maybe they

Justin Shelley (42:09)
Yeah.

Joshua Holloway (42:10)
get upset or they go shopping, right? But the the more we interact, or the more a vendor like

Mario's would have interacted and maybe planned better or said, Hey, we're adopting AI too and we're trying to improve these loadouts.

Justin Shelley (42:21)
Exactly.

Joshua Holloway (42:22)
And this is what we can do for you to make it easier. I'm sure Mario's dollars would have felt better spent leav staying at that vendor, than him, even though the person that they brought on decided to do it after hours. There's still a spend. There's sweat equity from an internal employee for Mario.

But somebody had to do it because the other company just wasn't. And when they saw the writing on the wall, where I'm sure a lot of other people are doing exactly what Mario's doing, they're panicking, right? It's that the knee-jerk reaction, we need to do more for the dollars we were asking you for.

Justin Shelley (42:53)
But what but the

more they're doing is a phone call and the what they should be doing, because we're all using the same company or have experience with them.

Joshua Holloway (43:01)
Yeah.

Justin Shelley (43:02)
for me, I would say, Hey, I need this done or that done, and they'd say, Sorry, we can't do that for you, and you can't do it yourself. It's just like you're fucked. Period. End

Joshua Holloway (43:08)
Yeah.

Justin Shelley (43:09)
of story, move on. So it's not AI that's the problem, Josh. You're you nailed it. It's a shitty company, that is so out of touch with their client base, let alone the technology, they don't even know their clients anymore.

They they they're they specialize, and it's not their only industry, but they have a lot of IT companies, MSP businesses that they're doing websites for, and and they're not threatened at all when they tell me, Hey, you can't do that. You we've you got a restricted version of this WordPress site. You can't even go make make that change. It's not not possible, not happening. Goodbye. Good day, sir. that's that's that that's their answer. I said good day. Well, so did I, bitch!

Joshua Holloway (43:49)
Yeah.

Well again, people are are are gonna move stuff around. and then it goes back to what we previously talked about, people losing jobs to AI. You're not gonna lose your job.

Justin Shelley (44:01)
Or

I would say again, they're losing their job with a shitty company, which will open them up to work for a better company who's more in touch with their clients or or you 'cause this company should have just said, Hey Justin, we can't do that, but now that AI's here, we can give you access to to just vibe code your own site. Here's here's the login or here you know, whatever. They they could have fixed this problem.

Mario Zaki (44:21)
They could have, yeah.

Joshua Holloway (44:21)
Yeah, they could

have. They absolutely could have. but maybe upper management. I I I don't know how many these types of people you've ran into, but there's people who are like, F AI, I'll never touch it, I'll never use it. It's just gonna it's a fad, it's gonna die. And I and I rem

Justin Shelley (44:38)
It's Blockbuster. This is a Blockbuster problem.

Joshua Holloway (44:41)
Yep, and I remember the same thing was said about cloud.

Justin Shelley (44:45)
Yeah. Yeah. yeah.

Joshua Holloway (44:47)
Office three sixty five when Office three sixty five was released and everybody had small business server with exchange built into it and I was sitting in it

Justin Shelley (44:53)
Nobody's ever gonna

pay this subscription. That's way too much money. my

Joshua Holloway (44:57)
Yeah.

Justin Shelley (44:57)
god, do they run to pay that subscription now?

Mario Zaki (45:00)
Ha ha ha.

Joshua Holloway (45:00)
absolutely. Absolutely.

But I think I think the the point we're trying to drive home or the point that we're trying to make is this is a paradigm shift in the computing industry and how we do our businesses and how we run. What's really important is learn how to use the tools, embrace it, and focus on humanistic relationships. Use your IT company to like check and make sure you're secure because all this new stuff is bringing new complications in the security world and the cybersecurity world, as I like explained with.

know, skills being infected. but focus on humanistic, like go through, go through the humanistic approach of your job and analyze your job. Look at it and say, like, what can I automate to free up time? What can AI replace to free up time that I can focus on providing better customer service? case in point, big corporations are putting AI callers in the front of everything, right? We call in, press one for this, press two for this. you want to cancel your service?

You have to go to this website and you have to click this here. And then they put you in this loop of insanity and you can never talk to a soul, right? And that's where people are getting pissed off because it's being used to deflect or or hide from like providing good customer service. We can do better and we could be opposite. We can provide good customer service. We can talk to our clients. We can embrace if there was an issue, we correct it super fast, right? Or we get in front of it or we take care of it. And and that's, you know.

Ultimately, what's gonna set businesses apart is who did a really good job with customer service and was humanistic. Yes, they leveraged AI and used technology. And then who embraced it in a way that was so negative, you never don't want to do business with them. Or lastly, who didn't embrace it? They kept on doing the same thing and they withered and died on the vine. I think the company that Mario was talking about is gonna wither on the vine unless they make a drastic change.

Justin Shelley (46:54)
Yeah, I think they're gone. They they're too little too late for them.

Mario Zaki (46:57)
Yeah, there there's nothing that I can imagine that they can do at this stage that they would be able to salvage our company. It just

Justin Shelley (47:04)
It in our side gun.

Mario Zaki (47:07)
especially sorry since you mentioned it, Josh. The or one of you two mentioned it, the majority of their cus customers are IT companies that know how to use this stuff.

Joshua Holloway (47:18)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Shelley (47:18)
That I'll talk, by the way. That that I'll go back to Nashville once a quarter and bitch about them. this is not the audience to piss off, guys. You

Mario Zaki (47:26)
Mm.

Justin Shelley (47:27)
do better. They didn't. all right, guys. We're we're the clock's almost up. Any final topics, anything that we missed over the last week, there's been a lot. maybe just final thoughts, final predictions.

And and keep it relatively short and then we're gonna go ahead and wrap this thing up. Mario, I'm gonna make you go first 'cause you've been kinda quiet today. I don't know if you need a little caffeine pill or or what you need over there, but

Mario Zaki (47:48)
Yeah. No,

Joshua Holloway (47:50)
It maybe.

Mario Zaki (47:52)
I I today I've actually been enjoying

Joshua Holloway (47:53)
Another hit of AI.

Mario Zaki (47:55)
I've been enjoying just listening to you guys today. But

Justin Shelley (47:57)
Okay.

Mario Zaki (47:59)
I mean one thing is that I i we said it, it's like for since last week, so much things have changed. I I just can't wait to see what's gonna happen next month or six months from now or a year from now. I would love to see what episode a hundred and sixty.

We're we're on episode one sixty what we're talking about.

Joshua Holloway (48:21)
Maybe it will all be AI and we won't be recording this any longer.

Justin Shelley (48:26)
And nobody will know. Yeah.

Mario Zaki (48:27)
Maybe Brian will actually show up. His AI will show up.

Joshua Holloway (48:27)
Nobody wanted to

Justin Shelley (48:31)
But he'll really be home, yeah.

Joshua Holloway (48:33)
Hey man, we we messed up. We lost Brian.

Mario Zaki (48:35)
Mm-hmm.

That's it. That's it for me.

Joshua Holloway (48:39)
I I think my final

my my final thought on this one is a lot is changing. Businesses need to reevaluate how they're quantifying, how AI is helping their businesses, not just looking at token spend, but productivity, what came back, what improved customer service. Some th some of those are kind of hard to quantify, but we're gonna have to start to figure that out. and maybe it is gathering more analytics so that AI can help us figure out where that where that improvement is.

The the biggest thing is embrace it, but don't embrace it with your eyes closed. Embrace it with your eyes and ears open and ask questions and ask people to help you out. Because as I said earlier, a skill that was gonna still steal everything that I had in my in my code. It's not it's not happening to me. It's now gonna happen to the other 9,999 people out of the 100,000 people that decided that that was a cool skill and they're gonna go and download.

Justin Shelley (49:36)
Yeah, that's crazy. Crazy. all right, so my final

Joshua Holloway (49:41)
Yeah.

Justin Shelley (49:41)
crystal ball moment is, you know, I've I keep talking about how technology was rapidly changing and developing for quite a while in my early career in the industry. New processors, new video cards, more memory, bigger hard drives. Until it stopped. It plateaued. Not that it changed you know, stopped. There was still ongoing development, but the

The rate of development largely plateaued. Our need to consume more and more resources plateaued. Computers got to where they did everything that we needed them to do. And it got boring. Guys, I hate to break it to you, but that's where AI is going. And it's going to happen way faster because the tool, the artificial intelligence itself, is developing so fast, it's going to get to the point where it doesn't need to do any more than it's already doing.

And I don't think we're far from that. Then the excitement becomes what are we going to do with the tool? But the development of the tool itself, I think the writing's on the wall for it. That's that's my that's my prediction that I I'm the first one to say it. I haven't heard it yet, but now g it'll be all over social media before we even publish this, which pisses me off. But yeah.

Joshua Holloway (50:51)
Yeah. Episode one hundred eight of Unhacked. He made the declaration.

Justin Shelley (50:57)
anyways, that's that's what I got.

We're gonna we're gonna call this one a day. Guys, the three of us are going to be in a suburb of Nashville, not not downtown. Maybe we should go downtown Nashville and record. anyways, I do want to figure out how to record next week. So bring your shit, bring your mic,

Joshua Holloway (51:12)
Whoa. I'm down for that. Yeah.

Justin Shelley (51:16)
bring your headphone, whatever you need. I'm traveling, I've got my gear, so I'm already I'm already set up for it. But let's we'll we we can't take a week off because we'll come back to a whole different world. So

Mario Zaki (51:26)
Mm. Yeah.

Justin Shelley (51:27)
that that's it.

wrap this thing up and we're gonna get ready to party next week and maybe we'll do a drunk episode. I don't know on the streets of

Joshua Holloway (51:36)
I was sh I was just gonna suggest that.

Justin Shelley (51:38)
Broadville, Broad Broadway.

Mario Zaki (51:38)
Wait, Justin, don't you do that every

week anyway?

Joshua Holloway (51:42)
Ha ha ha.

Justin Shelley (51:43)
This is not alcoholic. This is just coke. Alright guys, I'm outta here with rum exactly.

Mario Zaki (51:49)
The rubber.

Joshua Holloway (51:52)
Ha ha

ha

Justin Shelley (51:58)
Unhacked.

Joshua Holloway (51:58)
Unhacked.

Mario Zaki (52:00)
Unhacked.